Casting Doubt: The Legacy of Tim Keller, Part 5

CASTING DOUBT ON BIBLICAL TEACHINGS ABOUT HOMOSEXUALITY

There are many inappropriate and unloving ways to uphold the truth, but there never can be a loving way to distort it.
— “Clarity Needed,” a Word Foundations article first published in April, 2015 —

My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.
— the apostle James in James 3:1 —

Key point: The unvarnished truth often is difficult to convey and, admittedly, hard to accept. Sometimes it’s impossible to be winsome and to present the unvarnished truth at the same time. Tim Keller is being remembered by many as being winsome. Unfortunately, with regard to the matter of upholding what the Bible says about homosexuality, one is left to wonder if Keller’s winsomeness came at the expense of truth.

All of the articles in this series are accessible from this page.

We are considering the legacy of Tim Keller, the well-known former pastor of Redeemer Presbyterian Church in New York City who passed away on May 19, 2023 after battling pancreatic cancer. Pastor Keller was not only well-known, but also widely respected and even revered by many. While individuals from both inside and outside evangelical circles would affirm Keller’s reputation, if one digs a bit and examines various statements Keller made, as well as various positions he held, comparing and contrasting them with, to, and against Scripture, evidence arises that on numerous fronts Pastor Keller actually departed from biblical teachings and historic Christianity. He did so, not blatantly, but in subtle ways — ways that effectively cast doubt on what the Bible says.

On numerous fronts, Tim Keller actually departed from biblical teachings and historic Christianity. He did so, not blatantly, but in subtle ways — ways that effectively cast doubt on what the Bible says.

It’s like this: Concerning a clear biblical teaching, Keller might say something like, “Well, have you thought about this issue this way? — and then he would ask a question or offer a “take” that actually would “put a dent” or a doubt in listeners’ minds about the otherwise clear biblical teaching. Many preachers today are trying to do this in relation to biblical truths that touch on hot-button issues, but Keller was especially good at it.¹

Outright denials of truth often can readily be dismissed, but questions that tend to raise doubts many times can’t. Questions skillfully framed have the power to manipulate, penetrate, and infect understandings and convictions that previously were strong — even those that were strong for good reasons. While Keller may not always have meant to cast doubt, he did anyway. Sadly, in scenarios like this people typically don’t realize they have been diverted away from clear biblical truth. Clarity is desperately needed.

Minimizing the Seriousness of Homosexuality

What does the Bible say about homosexuality? For starters, it says it is a very egregious sin. Here’s a short article, a PDF copy of which is available here, that presents what Scripture says. Reading it will help you more readily understand why a significant number of Keller’s statements on the topic are problematic.

Let’s examine some of Tim Keller’s remarks about homosexuality and then explore a portion their ripple effect. As we have noted at the top of this article, the apostle James wrote in his epistle, “My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.” In part 1 we affirmed that Tim Keller’s influence is “difficult to overstate.” You’re about to see a powerful illustration of this fact.

Photo by Jonathan Cosens Photography on Unsplash

When he was interviewed by David Eisenbach in 2008, Tim Keller asked this rhetorical question. “[H]eterosexuality does not get you to heaven…. So, how in the world could homosexuality send you to Hell?”

[H]eterosexuality does not get you to heaven…. So, how in the world could homosexuality send you to Hell?
— Tim Keller —

Keller didn’t use these specific words, but he clearly indicated that homosexuality can’t send someone to hell because heterosexuality can’t make one eligible for heaven. This idea is not even substantively valid. It is logically false — even though the affirmation that heterosexuality is incapable of making a person fit for heaven is correct. As a whole the statement presents a problem, and a big one. It muddies the water on heterosexuality, homosexuality, sin, salvation, eternity, and authentic spiritual growth.

Note also that in the audio clip, Keller said, “[I]t’s very misleading, actually to say, even to say, homosexuality is a sin.” While we haven’t taken this statement out of context and the context in which Keller made his claim may help the listener understand what Keller meant, the statement itself is misleading and even an outright falsehood. I believe Keller was irresponsible to say it, in part because he also states, clearly, that homosexuality is a sin.

What does Rev. Keller believe sends a person to hell? He explains that a person goes to hell because of Pharisaism or self-righteousness—an insistence on being one’s own savior. [This would have been a great place to talk about the glaring connection between homosexuality and pride, but Keller didn’t do that.]

Here is the immediate context of Keller’s comment. A You Tube video that includes this portion of the interview is available here.…

Of course, it is true that that the deciding factor for entrance into heaven is whether or not an individual has humbly repented of sins, trusted Christ as Savior, and acknowledged Him as Lord.

This truth does not, however, mean that when a person dies without Christ he won’t go to hell for being a sinner. He absolutely will! We will highlight several passages momentarily that attest to this fact.

Keller’s Widespread Influence

For the moment, let’s focus the claim that “homosexuality won’t send you to hell, and we know that because heterosexuality doesn’t make anyone qualified to enter heaven.” I want to cite two well known and influential preachers that have echoed this idea —

- James David “J. D.” Greear, pastor of the multi-site Summit Church in North Carolina and president of the Southern Baptist Convention from 2018 to 2021, and
- Ed Litton, pastor of Redemption Church in Saraland, outside of Mobile, Alabama, and president of the SBC for a one year, beginning in June of 2021,

These two well-known pastors have quoted this statement from Keller in their sermons.

J. D. Greear

Greear has been one of many well-known and influencial preachers who has been a huge fan of Tim Keller. On January 27, 2019, Greear preached a sermon on Romans 1:24-32. He titled it “How The Fall Affects Us All.” As you might expect from the title, Greear emphasized that in Romans 1:24-32 and the verses surrounding it, Paul paints a picture of what rebellion against God looks like—a rebellion, Greear says, that is common to all people, everywhere. The pastor and Southern Baptist Convention president asserted that Paul even was writing about himself. [On these points, not all interpreters of the New Testament would agree]. You’ll find Keller’s quote in Greear’s sermon.

Ed Litton

In January of 2020, Ed Litton, pastor of Redemption Church in Saraland, Alabama, and a future SBC president, preached a sermon on Romans 1 in which, like Greear and Keller, he made this statement: “Homosexuality does not send people to hell. How do I know that? Because heterosexuality doesn’t send people to heaven.” You can watch the video of Litton’s sermon (which he plagiarized from J. D. Greear) on this page.

Don’t for a New York minute doubt the widespread and powerful influence of Timothy Keller. If you do, this audio montage will make a believer out of you.

The first preacher in the clip is Tim Keller; the second, JD Greear, and the third, Ed Litton.

Minimizing Homosexuality with a Trite Saying Gives Rise to Numerous Other Falsehoods

Now, keeping in mind that we still are considering the legacy of Timothy Keller, let’s consider several things that J. D. Greear got wrong in his sermon on homosexuality, and specifically, six things that he got wrong later in a blog post in which he emphasized many, if not all, of the same points he’d presented while preaching. You might realize already that these items originally appeared in a previous Word foundations post. As you read, remember that Greear considered Keller “a spiritual giant.”

- Item one: Greear goes wrong when he maligns the church for not dealing with the subject of homosexuality effectively through the years, and when he accuses the church of not caring about those experiencing same-sex attraction.
- Item two: Greear goes wrong when he fails to explain that for the man or woman who’s been involved in homosexuality, moving from being spiritually dead to being spiritually alive includes moving toward heterosexuality.
- Item three: Greear goes wrong when he implies homosexuals are “born that way.”
- Item four: Greear goes wrong when he makes the case that homosexuality isn’t worse than numerous other sins. This minimizes the serious nature of homosexual sin.
- Item five: Greear goes wrong when he implies that condemning homosexuality and warning against it are pharisaical.
- Item six: Greear goes wrong—very wrong—when, quoting social justice advocate Tim Keller, he says, “Homosexuality does not send you to hell. I know that because being heterosexual doesn’t send you to heaven.”

I realize we are focusing on J. D. Grear at this point — but in doing so, we actually also are talking about Tim Keller’s legacy as it relates to this issue. While Greear obviously quoted Keller in item 6 and while the other points he made may not include direct quotes from Keller, these are the kinds of errors that arise when a person begins to minimize a sin — homosexuality, in this case — that the Bible upholds as extremely serious: an affront to God’s commands as well as His created order.

Another Way Keller Minimized Homosexuality

In the 2008 interview conducted by David Eisenbach, Keller said something else that at least appears to be a failure to emphasize just how serious homosexuality is. Homosexuality is a path to death for individuals (also go here), both in this life and beyond (we’ll consider specific Scriptures momentarily). It’s also a path to death for civilizations, since homosexuals cannot reproduce. Yet Keller seems to soft-pedal it when he says, “We would say that homosexuality is not the original design for sexuality; therefore, it’s not good for human flourishing.”

“The original design for sexuality” is (dare I say it?) heterosexuality. This is reality! Heterosexuality is God’s good design — was revealed in the beginning, is evident in nature (especially through the reproductive process), and is affirmed at the beginning of Scripture in Genesis and by Jesus during His ministry.

While it is true that homosexuality is “not good for human flourishing,” this comment appears to be the result of Keller’s effort to frame the drawbacks of homosexuality in the best possible light. It has a parallel in Keller’s earlier statement that “the Bible is much harder on greed [and] materialism” than homosexuality (a comment included in the first audio clip in this article).

J. D. Greear contends the same type of thing when he writes,

We’re wrong if we think same-sex behavior is a fundamentally different type of sin. In Romans 1, Paul lists same-sex behavior as one corruption among many. We may not think of deceit, boasting, greed, or a rebellious attitude toward parents as equally depraved as same-sex behavior. But if you look at Paul’s list, they are.

Timothy Keller, J. D. Greear, and others who say the same things are wrong — or, at the very least, they are leading people to make wrong conclusions by “muddying the water” on this issue. Of course, any sin is detestable to God and enough to make a person ineligible to enter heaven. Even so, not all sins are equal. Greear and Keller don’t appear to agree with Scripture that homosexual acts are heinous in ways that set them apart from other sins. According to Scripture, sexual sins are especially serious:

^6:18Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body. ¹⁹Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? ²⁰For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s (1 Cor. 6:18-20).

Beyond this, homosexual acts are unique among sexual sins. In Romans 1:26-27, Paul indicated homosexuality is “against nature” or “unnatural.” By contrast, heterosexual intercourse outside of marriage, though sinful, is natural. These realities are being overlooked by many Christians and Christian leaders today, but they need to be considered, affirmed, and lovingly conveyed.

Yes, God loves all people, and He forgives all repentant sinners. Heterosexuals are in no less need of Christ’s blood and Christ’s forgiveness than are homosexuals. Even so, the church does everyone a disservice when it soft-pedals homosexuality. The motive seems to be to demonstrate understanding, compassion, and love. I’m all for these, but if we forget that distorting or misrepresenting the truth never can be loving, we actually will fail to show love to those who need desperately to hear the truth.

Did Keller Actually Go Beyond Soft-Pedaling Homosexuality into the Arena Giving it a “Green Light”? At Minimum, Did He Push the Church in that Direction?

Within evangelical circles, a debate currently rages over homosexuality, despite the clarity with which God’s Word addresses the matter. This chart from Portland Fellowship, a non-profit ministry, and its executive director, Jason Thompson, explains that, generally speaking, there are four positions on homosexuality among individuals and groups claiming a Christian identity. The first two — “Revel” and “Resist” — are predominantly LGBTQ in their emphases because they both espouse a gay identity.

A PDF file of this chart is available here.

- Those who “revel” celebrate their gay identity as God-given and completely compatible with Christianity. This position has come to be known as “Side A” in the gay-Christian movement.

- Those who “resist” also identify as “gay Christians.” It’s very important we understand what they resist and what they don’t resist. As we’ve said, they don’t resist a gay identity, and they don’t necessarily see their same-sex attraction as something they need to denounce or reject to be in a right relationship, or even in fellowship, with God. They are intentional about about resisting temptations to act on their feelings of same-sex attraction. This position has come to be known as “Side B” in the gay-Christian movement. Proponents of Side B include Revoice, a movement that has had its genesis in a conference that was first held in 2018 at Memorial Presbyterian Church in St. Louis, Missouri. In 2019, the pastor of Memorial Presbyterian (a PCA church) came out as gay. His name is Greg Johnson; here is the Christianity Today article Johnson used as the vehicle for his announcement. Go here to read what I wrote in response at the time.

- The third perspective highlighted in Portland Fellowship’s chart is “renounce.” What is renounced? A gay identity! The believers who hold this perspective have come to hold it because Scripture teaches that their identity is in Christ, and being identified identified with Christ has to mean renouncing sinful desires.

- The fourth perspective affirms the themes of the third perspective but goes beyond them to also emphasize transformation, the hope that one can “rebuild” according to God’s original design. In other words, the individual can, with God’s help, change from the inside out. As Paul wrote to the Corinthian believers in 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (emphasis added),

^6:9Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, ¹⁰nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. ¹¹And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

Neither “Side A” nor “Side B” Is Biblical

Here, in our discussion about Tim Keller’s legacy with regard to homosexuality, we need to talk about the first two of the four perspectives highlighted above. Of these four perspectives, neither the first (sometimes called “Side A” ) nor the second ( “Side B” ) is biblical, but at least Side B correctly acknowledges that homosexual activity is sinful and that temptations to engage in it should be resisted (even though Side B is infected with the belief that same-sex-attracted Christians don’t have to walk away from that desire). Be forewarned! As problematic as Side B is, Side A is even worse! And the surest path to embracing Side A is to travel to it by way of Side B.

In an article released on March 21, 2022, Tim Keller, then a retired Presbyterian Church of America (PCA) pastor, contended that the PCA was not sliding down a slippery slope toward progressivism. Actually, through the years, PCA churches and the PCA itself have had a reputation of being conservative. And yet, Revoice had its genesis in a PCA church! There’s more involved in this denominational debate than we can get into here, but I must say I find fascinating these words from the PCA leader who has been so talented at talking out of both sides of his mouth:

[A]s far as I know, there is not one PCA court — not one session, presbytery, or agency — that has ever endorsed Side B Christianity. While there is no exact way to determine the meaning of this term, it is fair to characterize it like this: People attracted to the same sex, though remaining celibate in obedience to the Bible, still can call themselves ‘gay Christians’ and see their attraction as a part of their identity which should be acknowledged like one’s race or nationality.…

As far as I can tell and as for as our documented [denominational] actions can affirm, an overwhelming super-majority of the PCA does not accept the biblical legitimacy of a Side B perspective. In a denomination of our size I’m sure there must be individuals — both lay and perhaps some ordained — who do. But to characterize the institution of the PCA as being in danger of endorsing liberalism in general and Side B in particular is unsubstantiated and seriously misleading.

One PCA elder was having none of it. He wrote,

In his recent by Faith article, Pastor Tim Keller boldly proclaimed that, if there is any Side B endorsement in the PCA, it’s only incidental. This is good news for the Presbyterian Church in America, the denomination plagued by controversy surrounding the Revoice conference since the summer of 2018.

The problem is that Tim Keller is lying. There are endorsements of Side B (gay, celibate) Christianity across the PCA and there have been for years. Sure, this might not be reflected exactly the way he framed it, saying “no session, presbytery, or agency” has publicly stated an allegiance with Side B. But this is part of the sleight-of-hand Keller is pulling off in his article. He could have said, “I do not know of a single PCA teaching or ruling elder or seminary professor who endorses Side B,” but that’s not what he said. And for good reason. The lie would be too obvious.

The problem is that Tim Keller is lying.
—an elder in the Presbyterian Church of America —

What we see here, I believe, is vintage Tim Keller. You can read the rest of the article written by the PCA elder here, but I don’t think you need to to understand how deceitful Keller was on this issue. Tim Keller himself endorsed Greg Johnson’s book Still Time to Care: What We Can Learn from the Church’s Failed Attempt to Cure Homosexuality. The book was published in late 2021; keep in mind that Johnson already had come out as a “gay pastor” over two years earlier. Even if the book doesn’t explicitly defend Side B, its underlying theme apparently is quite consistent with it: Here’s why gays can’t change!

Keller apparently had no problem at all on the one hand reassuring the PCA that it need not worry about a movement toward embracing “gay Christianity,” while on the other, a mere 36 days later, endorsing a book written by the very pastor who openly is promoting it in his denomination. This would be a valid point even Greg Johnson’s book hadn’t been about homosexuality at all.

But there are other ways Keller promoted Side B. Let’s read again from the article in which the PCA elder called Keller out.

Tim Keller endorses Side B. This shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone who has been watching these things play out over the last few years. Perhaps it is news for some readers, though?

Sure, Keller might use a different label or no label at all in order to avoid whatever baggage is potentially trafficked by the label (he says in the article that he doesn’t like labels because they are not nuanced enough). But I say again, Tim Keller endorses Side B Christianity.

Tim Keller is not concerned about the rise of Side B, whether within or without the Presbyterian Church in America. He promotes it.
—an elder in the Presbyterian Church of America—

The writer goes on to mention several avenues through which Keller did this, including David Eisenbach’s interview of him in 2008, which we cited earlier in this post. I encourage you to read the case that the elder makes against Keller. One of the concluding statements in his article could not be more direct: “Tim Keller is not concerned about the rise of Side B, whether within or without the Presbyterian Church in America. He promotes it.”

Compassion’s Mandate

Nothing less than the gospel is at stake here, because if people do not understand what sin is, they cannot and will not understand their need for salvation. Without question, heterosexuals need Christ just as desperately as do homosexuals, “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,” To whomever we speak with about Christ, heterosexuals and homosexuals alike, the mandate to invite them to come to Christ does not and cannot mean watering down the truth of the gospel to make it more attractive. It is neither loving nor compassionate to do this.

All of that said, we need to face this reality: The temptation to water down the serious nature of sin will be greater when we are sharing the plan of salvation with a homosexual than with those who are straight. Why? Because in our culture people of all ethnic and social backgrounds, interests, and income levels openly celebrate homosexuality! They are proud of it!

Compassion’s Mandate, you see, is about Christians’ responsibility to lovingly yet clearly convey the truth. The following passages are clear about God’s condemnation of homosexuality, and about the eternal destiny of those who habitually practice it: 1 Corinthians 6:9-11; Romans 1:18-32; 1 Timothy 1:8-11; Hebrews 13:4; Jude 5-7; Revelation 21:8; and Revelation 22:14-15. Here are the texts of these passages.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11

⁹Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, ¹⁰nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. ¹¹And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

Romans 1:18-32

¹⁸For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, ¹⁹because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. ²⁰For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, ²¹because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. ²²Professing to be wise, they became fools, ²³and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

²⁴Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, ²⁵who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

²⁶For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. ²⁷Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

²⁸And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; ²⁹being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, ³⁰backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, ³¹undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; ³²who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

1 Timothy 1:8-11

⁸But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, ⁹knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, ¹⁰for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine, ¹¹according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust.

Hebrews 13:4

⁴Marriage is honorable among all, and the bed undefiled; but fornicators and adulterers God will judge.

Jude 5-7

⁵But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. ⁶And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; ⁷as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.²

Revelation 21:8

⁸But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Revelation 22:14-15

¹⁴Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. ¹⁵But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

How Tim Keller Is Being Remembered

As I have read reports of Tim Keller’s death, life, and work as a pastor, one word I’ve encountered repeatedly is the word winsome. Being winsome certainly has its place, and God can and does use winsomeness among His people to attract non-Christians, and to help bring them to a point of placing their faith in Christ.

Christ Driving the Money changers from the Temple by Theodoor Rombouts / 17th century

However, as I consider Jesus’ life and ministry, the word that I think best describes Him is controversial. I’m not saying that as believers we must be controversial in every encounter or situation; but I am saying that, in our day, with our message, if we are faithful to present God’s truth to a world that needs to hear it but often initially resists, we will be unable to avoid being controversial, at least some of the time.

We cannot afford to “muddy the water” on homosexuality or any other sin. Unfortunately, Tim Keller made a significant number statements that

- actually did distort the clear teaching of Scripture on homosexuality — or at least that
- made, and still make, people wonder what Scripture actually taught.

Regrettably, these realities are a part of his legacy. It’s a legacy no one should want to leave, even if the whole world remembers you as winsome.

Next time, we’ll consider how Tim Keller, at least in some cases and in certain ways, distorted the truth about salvation and the gospel.

Stay tuned!

This article is available for publication and distribution by Exposing enemies within the church, LLC.

top image credit: You Tube / Talks at Google

Notes:

¹Many Christians today, including many Christian leaders, are far more concerned about being liked than about being respected for upholding God’s truth without compromise. They know that upholding the truth also will mean being ridiculed by many, and they don’t want to offend people. While we never should offend people unnecessarily, as believers we also need to remember that the truth often is offensive — yet it has the power to set people free. Francis Schaeffer was right when he observed, “Truth always carries with it confrontation. Truth demands confrontation; loving confrontation nevertheless. If our reflex action is always accommodation regardless of the centrality of the truth involved, there is something wrong.”

²Notice that while verse 5 refers to “those who did not believe,” verse 7 speaks of those who, “having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.” Disbelief and sexual immorality condemned these people to hell, not disbelief only.

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